The Sisyphus Comments

Silly students; don’t they know that their rights and liberties come from red, white and blue pieces of cloth? The key to keeping freedom isn’t protecting one’s prerogative to speak from meddling, overbearing bureaucrats but from making sure you never embarrass them. God forbid a high school student do something an authority figure – gasp – disapproves of! 😉

By Non-Criminal Justice Professional on Jun 14, 2008

Rich, could you mention the source article where you found this story? Thanks.

Rich’s Response: I think I got the info from this AP story: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003814732

By Non-Criminal Justice Professional on Jun 14, 2008

Thanks.

BTW, while I’m on my soapbox: the “shouting fire in a crowded theater” argument in favor of limiting first amendment liberties has always struck me as severely logically flawed. The first amendment has never been construed to give people the right to commit fraud or lie to people. Yelling fire in a crowded theater isn’t illegal if there’s actually a fire; in that case, it is one’s duty to alarm the crowd. Rather, deceiving people into thinking there’s a fire when there is, in fact, none is what makes it egregious. But that’s not a matter of the first amendment – it’s well established common law, on the order of slander, fraud, etc.

With political speech, it’s all opinion, so there is no necessary factual basis by which to challenge statements or actions (such as flag-burning). It is this kind of speech that the first amendment was intended to protect, because there are powerful interests in government, business, etc. which would like to stifle forms of expression they find inconvenient. The “shouting fire in a crowded theater” argument doesn’t apply to the political speech at issue in this case – and I’d argue it was erroneously introduced in the S.C. 1st Amendment case from which it originated.

Rich’s Response: Jeremy, in case you don’t realize it, they do make coffee without the caffeine. Relax – the comment was intended to be humorous. As I am sure you are aware, the “shouting fire in a crowded theater” was not my quote. It was actually a part of a U.S. Supreme Court opinion written by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr..

This narrative from Wikipedia gives a pretty thorough description of its origin:

“Shouting fire in a crowded theater” is a misquote that refers to Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.’s opinion in the United States Supreme Court case Schenck v. United States in 1919 and that is used to express the limits upon which free speech may be expressed under the terms of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Holmes, writing for a unanimous majority, ruled that it was illegal to distribute fliers opposing the draft during World War I. Holmes argued this abridgment of free speech was permissible because it presented a “clear and present danger” to the government’s recruitment efforts for the war. Holmes wrote:

The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. […] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.

Holmes wrote of falsely shouting fire, because, of course, if there were a fire in a crowded theater, one may rightly indeed shout “Fire!”. Falsely shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theater, i.e. shouting “Fire!” when one believes there to be no fire in order to cause panic, was interpreted not to be protected by the First Amendment.

Schenck was later limited by Brandenburg v. Ohio, which ruled that speech could only be banned when it was directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot), the test which remains until this day. Despite Schenck being limited, the phrase “shouting fire in a crowded theater” has since come to be known as synonymous with an action that the speaker believes goes beyond the rights guaranteed by free speech, reckless or malicious speech, or an action whose outcomes are blatantly obvious.

By Non-Criminal Justice Professional on Jun 14, 2008

Well, look: the way I treat comments sections of blogs is that it’s the place where the conversations take place. Just because I have an opinion doesn’t mean it’s an attack; just because I have a lot to say about an opinion doesn’t mean it’s hostile, either. You don’t have to respond to anything I write, and you certainly don’t have to respond to everything (I don’t respond to all my commenters).

For the record, though, I did indeed misunderstand your “fire” comment. Sarcasm and irony are often lost on the web; they’re especially often lost on my thick skull. Still, I think I made a worthwhile point; I don’t feel I wasted my time.

On more than one occasion, the freely flowing ideas that were prompted by your writing has ended up as an article on my own site. I consider that a good thing (at least for me, but also for you, because it ups your link weight on google), and I hope my writing prompts others to share themselves. Part of the power of blogging is that it’s a two way street; as a blogger myself, I see my site as a place for conversations, not me preaching and you listening. I’m not sure what I’m doing that’s making you uncomfortable; if you could be more clear about it, I’d love to see if we find common ground.

We are definitely on opposite sides of many issues, but I value being able to converse with those who disagree with me. I find it helps me a lot to practice politeness with those whose opinions I find objectionable. But I just find it absolutely bizarre and impossible to understand that a blogger would continually take exception, not to the lack of participation in their site, but to the abundance of it.

Feel free to delete this comment and respond via email if you’d prefer that, BTW.

Rich’s Response: I would never delete your comments. They are the only comments that liven things up around here. I think the majority of my readers have computers that are not equipped with a keyboard. Keep the cards and letters coming.

BTW – Thanks for the tip on the VA Beach officer’s discussion on interviewing techniques. I am going to post it in the near future. Enjoy the summer and good luck on the job hunt. Do you do PHP programming?

By Non-Criminal Justice Professional on Jun 16, 2008